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CAMPUS

The Norwich Guidon
Dec. 11, 2003

Schneider answers questions about new drug testing policy

Editor's Note: On Nov. 18, 2003, Communications Professor Ken Bush, Executive Editor of The Norwich Guidon, interviewed President Richard Schneider about the new random drug testing policy and the events which led to it. The following is a transcript of that interview.

Bush: How big of a problem do you think this is in the United States on college campuses?

Schneider: I think it's a growing problem. We know from the things that I've read that it is in more use in high schools and in growing use. That makes me worried as a college president because I know that those students will be arriving on the doors of Norwich's steps. I know that this is also a problem in the United States military. The people we attract, many of them, really support and admire strength; physical strength. And so for some students they feel the inappropriate use of steroids will be a quicker way to get there.

Bush: So, how do we compare, then, with other Vermont colleges?

Schneider: I don't have any statistical basis to compare us with other than when the Homeland Security agents were here, they said they were investigating a number of colleges and high schools in Vermont.

Bush: Remind those who were not here last spring, how did all this come to light?

Schneider: My understanding in talking to the agents when they visited with me in late spring, they told us that they thought they had evidence that three of our students were using and distributing illegal steroids; that they purchased them on the internet from China; that they were shipped to a post office box in Montpelier and the federal agents were there ready for them when they came to pick up their shipment.

Bush: You said last spring that at that time there were between 20 and 50 other students who had purchased these drugs from the three students. Did that turn out to be true?

Schneider: We don't know. That's what the investigators told us. And since that time we've tried repeatedly for additional information as well as copies of statements and the federal government refuses to release them to us.

Bush: Apparently the substances were steroids and performance-enhancing drugs as well as Bovine Growth Hormone. Has the investigation since indicated that there might have been drugs other than those?

Schneider: The agent told me in April that the steroids—that is the purchase and use of them and the distribution and the future sale of them—was illegal. It sounds like from that meeting with me that the Bovine Growth Hormone is not illegal, but very dangerous to you physically. And I think that's why they came to us so promptly without even finishing their investigation. They were very worried that these students could be dead and/or putting themselves at great physical risk.

Bush: So was this some sort of computer sting?

Schneider: No. I don't know how the feds do that. I know that they track shipments from certain locations in China. They check stuff in tanker carloads at ports. I think that's how they found them; that's what they told me, anyway.

Bush: Who were the students involved?

Schneider: I can't release the names, Ken, under FERPA, which doesn't allow us to release the names of our students or discipline.

Bush: Are they still at school?

Schneider: One student is still at school, and two are not presently matriculating.

Bush: The one who is here, why is he still here?

Schneider: We did not take any action against any of these three, under advice from our legal counsel that said, since there was a federal probe going on, and federal investigation, our counsel felt that we would be not prudent by taking any action first. That is, let the feds find out what's really going on. We didn't want to screw up a federal investigation. We certainly want to get to the bottom of this just like anybody else does. But we have to let the federal government, who is expert in this kind of thing, do their work.

Bush: So if this investigation takes, say, two years to complete, these students could graduate from Norwich University before any action could be taken against them.

Schneider: In theory, that's true. In practice, whether that happens or not, I kind of doubt that.

Bush: According to your Nov. 6, 2003 e-mail to the alumni, you said charges had been filed by the office of the United States Attorney for the District of Vermont. What were the charges, exactly?

Schneider: The charges, as I understand them, was for possession and trafficking in anabolic steroids.

Bush: So, it is illegal to buy them over the internet from a foreign country?

Schneider: Yes, it is, to the best of my knowledge and according to the agent.

Bush: Do you think this is just the tip of the iceberg at Norwich? Do you see a bigger problem?

Schneider: No. I think they were very good at getting on top of it. I sure hope we've scared it out of them. And putting in place the policies hopefully will also be a great deterrent. Whether it will solve the problem forever, I don't know. I can tell you that we are getting good response from our students about putting the policy in place, and that's a good thing. We certainly have made people much more aware.

Bush: What is it, that you think, about the Norwich culture and climate that may contribute to this problem?

Schneider: I think in our climate and things that we hold as important and that we value, certainly physical strength – and that certainly has been an attribute of the United States military – courage, for example, and strength have to go hand-in-hand. That certainly is true in police forces and fire departments, where the inappropriate use of steroids is also a problem nationwide and in the United States military. We attract a lot of students who are interested in those careers. And so, I think there's a greater potential and probability of them coming here. So, that also has me concerned.

Bush: You said in The Norwich Guidon last spring that "this is a body-builder thing, not an athlete thing." And yet, athletes seem to be the ones taking the brunt of this new policy of random drug testing. How do you explain that?

Schneider: There were three athletes who brought the anabolic steroids to campus. The agents felt that it was not being used just by varsity athletes, though; there were non-athletes involved. So that was the context of my comment previously. I don't want people to think that it's just a varsity athlete problem; this is a body-builder problem. If you happen to be an athlete, that goes with that. The issue is body-building; ‘I want to get bigger, quickly.' You can get bigger, if you work out. And you can get just as big as if you are on steroids, I think. And we certainly have a wonderful strength-training coach, now, who can help kids do this safely.

Bush: The new policy is targeted, at least at this point, at athletes, and yet that flies in the face of your opinion before, when you stated it wasn't athletes.

Schneider: Yep. I was able to do the athlete policy first, because I got the help of NCAA. Gen. Kelley is almost finished with the policy for the non-athletes. And that policy will say that if we have reasonable suspicion, then I can require the student to take a urinalysis test. If he refuses to take the test, we assume it's positive. And then we can put charges against him. I do not think it's appropriate to just do random testing of my whole student population base.

Bush: So how do you control this, then?

Schneider: I think, having now a professional strength training coach down in the weight room, who knows what to look for. One of the reasons why he's there is to help you and me and all the students get bigger and stronger as we would like, naturally. But he's also been trained to know what are the warning signs of whether potentially this kid is on steroids. So, that's one issue. If we feel that because of information we obtained from other students or faculty or staff that we have reasonable suspicion of any student at Norwich being on illegal drugs of any kind, we can now require them to take a urinalysis test. That policy has not been approved, yet; I haven't approved it. It is in its final stages. And my guess is, it will be out before Christmas break.

Bush: It sounds like profiling. Is it?

Schneider: No. Reasonable suspicion is a high level step above profiling.

Bush: Is this ‘reasonable suspicion' being judged by just whoever supplies information?

Schneider: It has to actually be approved by the commandant, and maybe when we publish the policy or get ready to discuss the policy we should have further conversation with The Guidon. But we have laid out there what is the basis for reasonable suspicion.

Bush: But who will have the final authority to determine whether the information is valid?

Schneider: The final authority rests with the commandant. He has to be convinced.

Bush: Who will have the authority to make the judgment that they might be using drugs?

Schneider: The commandant. He has to get information he believes to be credible before he can order the test. Only the commandant can order the test.

Bush: And who would funnel information to the commandant?

Schneider: Anybody that might have information. It could be a fellow student; it could be faculty member or staff member; it could be a coach. It could be anybody. And then the commandant in his good judgment has to decide if that's reasonable or not and if there's reasonable suspicion there. It's not a legal test; it's an administrative test. It's not probable cause. It's a step below probable cause. And if the student hasn't been on steroids or something like that, he has nothing to worry about.

Bush: This seems to clash with individual privacy.

Schneider: We are a private institution. We can have whatever rules we want. That rule is not an illegal rule. And students would know that before they come here. We have other rules here: we say you can't lie, steal or cheat. Kids who come to Norwich know that that's what the rule is; that's what the standard is.

Bush: But those rules tend to be non-invasive, non-physical. This policy will now be carried to the person's body. Could that be legally challenged?

Schneider: Anybody can challenge anything. I think we'd win. But we would certainly vigorously defend. It's not invasive; it's not like I'm taking a blood sample. I am taking a urine sample. So, it's not like a needle is going into you. I'm not making you cut your fingernails or your hair. Our varsity athletes, when they come to Norwich, sign a release that allows us to do that. It could be challenged, but I'd love the challenge. America has got to deal with the issues that kids are having when they come to school. We're in this to help them, not hurt them. If they're on this stuff, it's bad for them. I need partnerships with my parents and my students to help kids. Not to let them go down a path that is so injurious to their own personal health.

Bush: Could this policy be expanded to any type of drug abuse?

Schneider: If it's an illegal drug, the policy covers it.

Bush: Prior to this policy, if you had a student suspected of using heroin, for example, was there a policy in place to require testing that student?

Schneider: No. And that's why we're changing it.

Bush: So, this is a sweeping new policy. It's not just for steroids.

Schneider: It's not just body-building steroids; it's a total drug policy. And by the way, the NCAA drug list is very long. It does include things like heroin. It's not just a body-building policy; it's any illegal drug. If we feel there's reasonable suspicion, for example, that you're on heroin, after this policy is promulgated we have every right to ask you to take a urinalysis.

Bush: And prior to now?

Schneider: Up to now, we've had to just do it on physical evidence. And we have brought administrative charges against previous Norwich students and found them guilty, and I've dismissed them.

Bush: Is that the ultimate penalty?

Schneider: The ultimate penalty the school can render against any student is dismissal, which means you're never coming back. If I suspend you, you have to reapply to come back. There may be conditions on that suspension, like I may require you to take some type of mandatory drug or alcohol counseling while you're home, for example, and show evidence you have successfully completed a drug or rehab program.

Bush: You can understand why students in the dorms might worry that all it takes is a suspicion put forward; that there could be snitches.

Schneider: There could be, and that is one reason why only one person is vested with the right to make sure that they've got enough reasonable suspicion, and that's Gen. Kelley. That could happen. I will tell you that hasn't normally been the case. In the reaction I've gotten from the students today has been very positive. The regular athletes who don't use steroids or don't use drugs don't want those kids around. They discredit our school. They discredit that football team. What about all the other 97 kids who are not on it, who are down lifting weights, legitimately trying to do the honorable thing and then having three turkeys cloud their reputation? The regular good kids, who are not on illegal drugs and steroids, don't want it around them. This is a way to prevent kids who think they can have a great time here at Norwich on drugs not to come.

Bush: Could you see how organizations such as the American Civil Liberties Union could call foul here?

Schneider: I don't think so. We've had the ACLU on campus, for example, when it comes to room searches. They had an open meeting last year where those guys told us we are better and more protective of students' rights than UVM. That was a public meeting on this campus.

Bush: They haven't gotten wind of this policy, though, have they?

Schneider: Probably not. But I don't think it's any different than what's going on with the NCAA now, anyway. We may be the first school to do random testing at Div. III for any varsity athlete.

Bush: Are you patterning this policy after any you have seen elsewhere?

Schneider: Yes. We worked with Drug Free Fitness, which is a group that's sanctioned by NCAA. They designed for us the very best policy that they know about there. Their legal advisors talked with our coaches and athletic director, and we came up with a policy we felt best fit Norwich.

Bush: Do you know of other private institutions that have this strict of a policy?

Schneider: No. We've gotten wonderful comments from the NCAA, because we've taken this stand. And we've been talked about at the ECAC meetings, as well, as being on the right track. We've got a lot of other people worried about illegal drugs and the negative consequences it has on our students.

Bush: Last spring you were quoted in The Norwich Guidon as saying: ‘When the students return in the fall [of 2003], we're going to do some heavy-duty education.' What have you done?

Schneider: We're still in the process, unfortunately, of hiring the person who is supposed to do that. We've done a couple of things. I asked Professor Chico Hernandez over the summer to pull together all the faculty resources that we have at school to think through how we're going to handle this in the long term. That has been going forward and continues to go forward. There is already a lot of for-credit instruction given in this area. What's not happened, yet, is what's general overall information for the general student who may not be a nursing, criminal justice or sports medicine major. Those majors are getting good amounts of this now. Not enough, probably so, but I'm going to leave that to the faculty to decide.

Bush: Would you say that students in general don't know the dangers?

Schneider: No. As a matter of fact, the agents tell me that they know full well the dangers and that they only want to get big. And they feel like it's never going to happen to us, that the bullet will always miss us. And it's that constant, optimistic youthful attitude that, even though they know intellectually this could hurt them, they're going to do it, anyway.

Bush: Then, how can a full-fledged education program make a difference, if they already know the information?

Schneider: I think it's the only course I have. If I don't believe in education, what business are we in? I think it can make a difference in the long term. Is this an uphill battle? You better believe it. In the same way alcohol is. What other example does this campus need of more kids dying over inappropriate use of alcohol? I can't think of a better object lesson, Ken, than your newspaper articles of how this campus grieves when we lose kids. And yet that same weekend after [Brendan] MacDonald dropped from the back of Alumni Hall, we know and the corps knows and the civilian students know we had Norwich college kids drinking to excess. I am taken aback, yes, of what do I do next. But if I don't believe in education, I might as well get out of this business.

Bush: You're passionate about this issue.

Schneider: I don't want to lose any more students. I have found out that the damage that this does to your body is much more severe if you're still in puberty or just before puberty. It sounds like the real ones who are panicked are the high school principals, because for high school kids the damage physically is much greater than post puberty. It does really hurt you. The standard signs that the drug agents told me were: aggressive behavior, incredible acne, impotence and cancer. They're all terrible.

Bush: This is essentially just a male issue, isn't it?

Schneider: At the college level it may still be just a male issue; at the Olympic level, clearly, it's not. We have seen female Olympic stars lose their medals over the last several years. I'm not willing to discount that. My honest answer: I don't know if it's a college Div. III women athlete problem or not. The agents also felt this is worse at Div. I schools than at Div. III schools. The number of athletic scholarships is very small. If a kid really wants to play, he's got to do really, really well. That group, almost like pre-pro athletes, are looking for anything they can find to give them an edge. So, they're much more at risk of doing this than Div. III athletes are.

Bush: Apart from the student's individual legal problems, is Norwich liable for any student use of illegal drugs?

Schneider: No. Not that I know of. We're not providing it. We're doing everything we can to educate them. We are hiring a full-time drug and alcohol counselor, also. I've set money aside in the budget for educational materials and speakers and things like that. Prior to this, Chip Keinath, who has been our part-time alcohol person, has done a fabulous job on a part-time situation. My assessment was that we really had to ramp up that and throw more resources at it at a time when I shouldn't be throwing more resources at stuff. But we did have to add two staff people. We're in the final stages of hiring the drug and alcohol person. I hope we have that person picked before Christmas.

Bush: In your opinion, are there any peculiarities or anything special about the lifestyles at Norwich that predispose students to using these illegal substances? And are civilians as much at risk as are corps members?

Schneider: I think they are. I think they are probably equally at risk. The three students that were charged were all civilian students. In my 12 years as president, I've certainly dismissed [members of] both groups for inappropriate or illegal drug use. So, I don't see it as a lifestyle-centered thing. This is ‘I want to be big.' And I think that's on both lifestyles.

Bush: Any policy loopholes?

Schneider: You never know until you test the policy and try it for a while. We've changed other policies at the school. We did spend some resources to get the best legal advice and the best NCAA advice I could find to help us draft this policy. So, we're starting out in the strongest position I can start and then we're going to try it for a while.

Bush: When does the policy actually go into effect?

Schneider: The athletic policy went into effect last week when I signed it.

Bush: When does the entire student body come under the new policy?

Schneider: That hasn't happened, yet. That will start this second semester.

Bush: In your opinion, do we have a drug addiction problem at Norwich, including alcohol?

Schneider: I don't think so. I think we're in the same pack with alcohol as every other college president, maybe a little bit better. Generally the cut of our students is better. That is, generally I think our students are better behaved and want to do the right thing. I think our Norwich students are more respectful, and I think that has them think twice about doing stupid things. There are always some of them who will do stupid things, and we've certainly seen that played out. If we have a problem here, I think it's more of an alcohol problem. That has been a cultural thing for this generation. I may see a rise in illegal drug use in America; that worries me. The group that's coming up may actually turn that trend around.

Bush: Is there something about the military college that helps promote this problem?

Schneider: No. I think, if anything, it helps control it more. When I was the vice president at Drexel, I had far more drinking and drug issues than here. And I think there is a role model image of a person who does the right thing is honorable. Taking steroids is not honorable. It's cheating, cheating every athlete who worked so hard naturally to build their body and conditioning. It's dishonest, and I think generally our students are very honest. They would consider it not upright to use drugs. Certainly that's how our coaches felt. Coach Yesalonia felt absolutely betrayed by these students.

Bush: If someone were to be brought before the commandant with some evidence from someone, what is the procedure after that? Is it an honor violation?

Schneider: No, it's not an honor violation. It's just a violation of our drug and alcohol policy. Before we would sanction them, we want to make sure that they really were on the drugs. The one way to do that is to make them take a urinalysis test. We've had some students we have charged previously with possession of drug paraphernalia. That is a dismissal offense. If you have just the paraphernalia in your room or on your possession, I can throw you out of Norwich, based on our present policy.

Bush: And that won't change?

Schneider: That won't change.

Bush: What is the appeals process?

Schneider: That will be laid out in the policy. They can take a second test within 24 hours. The samples are actually split in the presence of the investigator, and there's all the due process piece, once we've decided that you need to take the urinalysis test to prove whether you were using it or not. For the students who were falsely accused, it will clear them. For the students who were rightfully accused, it will nail them.

Bush: But if you have a number of false accusations, won't that undermine the policy?

Schneider: It could. And that's speculation on your part. Certainly if I were the commandant, if someone kept bringing me stories about people, and I tested one or two of them, and none of them were correct, the standard of evidence would go much higher.

Bush: One of the problems here is that drugs clear the body at different time intervals. If you are gathering evidence against someone, and they have stopped using the substance, it could come back as a negative. That could, thereby, undermine the policy.

Schneider: It could. But it certainly would put the student on notice that we're onto them. And if that might be a deterrent for them using it again, that might be a good thing.

Bush: I don't want to be flip, but is it possible this could become a police state for people reporting drug use?

Schneider: I don't think so. It hasn't been for other issues. We have the same kind of strict standards on a whole bunch of stuff, and it doesn't happen that way. Generally, the student body doesn't rat on each other, unless they feel really exercised about something. I would think if we have had that, it is in the arena of illegal drugs. Because this is out of step with the culture of the student body, to be using this kind of stuff. The vast majority of our students don't want any part of it.

Bush: Could this attitude actually do the reverse, to have such a loyalty to rook buddies that they will tolerate drug use? If last year's report was true, that 20 to 50 other students were actually using steroids, then wasn't there a tolerance happening?

Schneider: Yep. And those people wanted to use them.

Bush: So that may not change?

Schneider: It may not. I would be open to your readers to give me other ideas or advice for what other policies we could put in place to prevent students from using stuff that will hurt them. It's an adult responsibility of the institution not to just educate them but to make sure you have a good life and that you don't do things that will harm you in the long term.

Bush: You almost appear to be a parent, here.

Schneider: That's certainly how I view my students. I love my students. We want only the best for them. That's what we want for our own children; why wouldn't we want it for our students? But the courts have cleared that. Universities are not in loco parentis, which is, we're in the place of the parent. Our government and laws have grown above that. But when I was in school, there was a much stronger feeling of parental responsibility, whereas today Norwich is not responsible for the stupid acts of its students. If we contribute to it, yes, then we are. For example, if we were providing the alcohol or the illegal steroids, then the feds should slam-dunk us. But that's not where we are.

Bush: Is this policy almost an act of desperation?

Schneider: There's nothing else that I know that I can do. I wouldn't call it desperation, I think it's prudent. I think we are ahead of the curve. But we've been ahead of the curve on a number of issues. Certainly bringing women into the corps when we did; introducing civilian students when we did; now requiring Div. III random testing of our athletes. I think two or three years from now, when you do a follow-up on this story, there will be many more Div. III schools doing this same thing. According to the NCAA, they are really impressed; think we're on the right path and encouraging us.

Bush: So, is this evidence that things are getting worse?

Schneider: I don't have any evidence to stand on, yet. Sometimes it takes schools a while to figure stuff out. Sometimes it takes a wake-up call. Certainly, having the federal agents on our campus saying they're doing a federal investigation of three of our students -- you better believe I paid attention to that. That's never happened before at Norwich.

Bush: You must have been shocked when you got that call.

Schneider: I couldn't believe it. So then you start dealing with the reality of that. Maybe we had students using anabolic steroids, before, but it never rose to anybody's radar screen. And now it has, so now we're made aware of it, what is the responsible thing to do? We'll deal with it. It wasn't that we were hiding from it, before; we didn't even know about it.

Bush: Any final thoughts?

Schneider: I will be fascinated to read how people feel about it. I'm sure they would be worried about someone just tattletale-ing on them, and we making them whiz, and they feel embarrassed. I can understand that. I'm open for any other way to make sure. I dismiss random testing for non-athletes. I just didn't think that's where we wanted to be. This seemed like a more moderate step, that there had to be justification that Gen. Kelley could make a reasoned decision, that there was enough there to make a kid whiz. Rather than just say, ‘okay, today is Monday, line me up 20 kids at random. You're all coming to the restrooms, ladies' and men's, and we're going to whiz.' That I didn't think was necessary in any way at Norwich.

Bush: You're not ruling out that it could come to that, though, right?

Schneider: I'm not ruling it out. I hope it wouldn't be under my presidency in the next five or six years. Certainly, if America or our young people continue to use it more and more, and we find out that it's more harmful, the school is going to have to do something. Then you leave it to them at that time to deal with the problems that they have. You're not going to find a school with such a hard policy on honor, either. I do think our values do attract certain students to us. That if they don't feel comfortable, here, they're not going to apply or matriculate.

Bush: What if it were to come to light that a member of the faculty or staff were using illegal drugs?

Schneider: We have university policies that deal with employees, which are different from the student policies.

Bush: So this new policy has no bearing on them?

Schneider: No, it wouldn't. This is a student policy. And that's because there are different responsibilities for a contractual relationship of employees than it is for students.

The Norwich Guidon is a twice-monthly student newspaper distributed at Norwich University. It provides laboratory experience for students in the Communications program. Claims asserted by letter writers, editorials and other articles do not represent the positions of Norwich University. The Norwich Guidon welcomes signed letters to the editor. They should be no longer than 300 words. Unsigned letters will not be printed, but names may be withheld upon worthy request. All letters are subject to editing for length and good taste. Mailing address: The Norwich Guidon, Communications Center, Norwich University, Northfield, VT 056632. www.norwich.edu/guidon. If you have any questions or comments about the paper, please contact Professor Ken Bush at kbush@norwich.edu.