McKean answers questions about recent disciplinary issues

Editor's Note: The Norwich GUIDON Managing Editor, Amanda Tracy, sat with Michael MCKEAN, Vice President for Student Affairs, on January 16. The following is a transcript of that interview.

MCKEAN: This isn't a witch hunt. I would be a fool to say, 'Gang, these are the unauthorized things we found around the barracks and dormitories; I'm giving you time; get it out, recognize that this is what we do.' If we can't handle the truth, then don't ask me to talk to you. I'm not on a witch hunt. What I want them to do is know what is unauthorized; let's move it out, because I don't think I have a bunch of criminals out here. They aren't criminals; they're good people. I'm being very honest and up front with everybody, so that they understand that we're all above board, and they understand that we're protecting them.

GUIDON: The reiteration of the policies this year, meaning in January of this semester, how much of that communication effort is because of this investigation?

MCKEAN: What drove me was well before this investigation. The stuff I showed last night was not even a result of this investigation. It is a result of stuff that was discovered in October/November, and it just keeps 'cropping up,' and this tells me that, over time, the students have just lost sight of this, and that's the reason I'm going public with it.

GUIDON: So well before this incident there were things that inspired in you the need to reiterate this policy?

MCKEAN: Oh, well before.

GUIDON: Incidents like what?

MCKEAN: The first set was found on another investigation, completely separate, involving two people in the Corps. With that, we discovered knives and some alcohol. Another incident was a prospective student reported that he was shot with a pellet gun from across campus, and we knew where it came from, because he said 'it came from that dormitory.' So that's how it's coming to light that we have this stuff, and then it started materializing, and what I'm trying to do is make sure that everyone knows that it's illegal and it's dangerous. But none of it came from the investigation that you're asking about.

GUIDON: Will the cadets involved in this investigation have (criminal/civil) charges filed against them?

MCKEAN: I can't answer that. I brought in the police, because I had to. There were certain things reported to the police before Christmas, and we found evidence that linked (the students) to those thefts. There were things that were criminal in nature that I'm obliged, by law, to report to the police, and they're looking into that.

GUIDON: In the meeting last night, you mentioned that (the students) were in possession of master keys to some of the buildings on campus….

MCKEAN: We found one set; all those locks have subsequently been changed, but we did find a set of keys that, when they were discovered missing from that professor, it was, in fact, a master key to the building.

GUIDON: What kind of sanctions did the students receive?

MCKEAN: All the students involved have been punished. They have received [a variety of punishment ranging from] punishment or dismissal based on the level of participation in the activities.

GUIDON: Was the leadership of the Corps, the IG, the cadet chain of command, brought into this in any way?

MCKEAN: No. There are certain times when the Corps of Cadets are prohibited from getting involved. Sexual assault, sexual harassment. As soon as any type of criminal activity or class one offense occurs, then it's elevated [to an administrative level]. In this case, of course, it was discovered while they were all gone, during a normal health and welfare inspection of the barracks, and we do this to protect our students.

I think it's important, Amanda, because you asked whether we're pressing charges. We're an education institution; we want to educate and train. These students did something wrong, really violated our fundamental values, and what they're involved in did not support the good order and discipline of the university and the Corps of Cadets. We have specific regulations on that; the regulations are zero tolerance, and we don't take lightly that a dismissal or very harsh punishment. Hopefully a dismissal or a very harsh punishment --hopefully, that is the single emotional event that will turn a young person around, and they'll go on to continue their education somewhere else and be contributing citizens to our nation. We are not out to destroy our lives. That's why we protect their privacy, we try to clean this up, and we don't want them to have charges following them the rest of their lives.

GUIDON: What would you say to the people who feel that, by not filing charges against these students, the university is still tolerating their actions to some degree?

MCKEAN: It's called character building. We're developing our students to have good characters, founded in great integrity and values. Part of that is not turning your head and tolerating wrongdoing. The right thing to do is take action, the wrong thing to do is turn your head and look away, because, as I said last night, you're cracking your foundation. The beautiful thing about this university and all universities is that it gives people time to develop, to learn how to make those harder, right decisions, which is a terrible dilemma and conflict. It's an ethical dilemma. They must go through this, and the beauty of what we have here is the opportunity to educate, and hopefully they'll learn from this. I mean, there's not been anybody who's walked in and turned their buddies in for something they've seen and heard them do, but they're thinking, and they're coming to grips with those ethical dilemmas and how to handle them.

GUIDON: Let's backtrack for a moment. You're conducting a health and wellness inspection, going through the checkout procedure, as you say, to make sure all the windows and doors are locked. How, physically, was this stuff found in a room?

MCKEAN: Well, some stolen articles were sitting up there like trophies on bookshelves.

GUIDON: And that led to….

MCKEAN: I'd already told the AC's [Assistant Commandants] that when they clear, I want a health and welfare, because we'd had so many thefts, 'I want you to be a little more attentive than normal.' They found stolen articles, which lead to a further search, which discovered more stuff, which lead to other searches, meaning, if you want probable cause, which is not required by the book, we've got huge probable cause. I mean, when people put stolen items on display, those are stolen, it doesn't mean that the person stole them, but it does mean that they were in possession of stolen items.

GUIDON: At what point were the students in question informed that this stuff was found in their rooms and that they were the subjects of an investigation?

MCKEAN: As soon as they arrived on campus.

GUIDON: How long was it between when they arrived and were informed and when this stuff was found? What was the time frame?

MCKEAN: I couldn't tell you.

GUIDON: Generally speaking, at the end of the semester, the week following semester examinations was the week the inspections in question were conducted. At some point that week?

MCKEAN: Yes.

GUIDON: And they were notified when they got back?

MCKEAN: That's correct.

GUIDON: About three weeks had passed. Why did it take that long to inform them?

MCKEAN: Well, there was no reason to. I mean, I can't order a student back here. Jurisdictionally, I don't have any authority over them. There's no sense of urgency. I mean, there's no sense of a crime where lives are at risk, there was no reason to upset their vacation. They were headed back [home]; they'd have to head back. Each time we found stuff, we had two people involved, so chain of custody was quite clear, it was tagged immediately and it was secured. I saw no reason to call them back.

GUIDON: In terms of policy, many of the students say they're not informed. While many students say that they're not informed, they're told that ignorance is no excuse. In some ways, it's hard not to be ignorant if the policies are not readily available. For those people, how do you answer their concerns?

MCKEAN: You answered it. Ignorance is no excuse of the law. It's like academic integrity. There's [a copy of] academic regulations in each room that talks about academic integrity and plagiarism, and our students will be in charge of academic integrity in their classes. So I had a class with every single freshman on this campus, and read them the academic reg that's in their rooms, because I know; I'm not stupid; you guys don't read it. It's sitting there right in front of you, and, like, [the cadet Rules and Regulations] you probably don't read this, either. That's why everyone says, 'It's a change in policy!' No, it's NOT! When they came, they came under these regulations.

But, that's why I had the class last night. I'm telling them, because I cannot be responsible to read everybody the cadet Rules and Regulations. My expectation must be that college students can read, but I'm a realist. That's the reason I'm telling them. I'm saying, 'Gang, this stuff's not right, and this is our policy. You know this.'

GUIDON: In what ways does the university make these policies accessible to the students? We know that we're given copies of the Academic Regulations. Does (the corps) have copies of the Rules and Regulations that are given to them at any point in time?

MCKEAN: Yes.

GUIDON: Do they have them in their rooms?

MCKEAN: They've been issued in every room. Usually they're redone every year or every two years; this one wasn't redone this summer. So they're out there. All of the upperclassmen know it; the underclassmen are aware of it, and they know where to get them if they don't have them, which is up here. This is the corps one; we have a civilian one, but they're out there. They have them.

GUIDON: In what ways will the commandant's office make the polices more accessible to the students?

MCKEAN: I want to put it online this summer. All freshmen are going to get a hard copy; everyone else is going to get it online. That's my intent.

GUIDON: On to toleration. Last night you talked an awful lot about toleration. You asked the students to raise their hands if they knew LOS existed, and then they were all tolerating. At what point does an amount of knowledge become toleration? If you have a student that knows that --let's name names, the Night Riders, the Skull and Swords, LOS, any number of other secret societies,-- we may know or have heard of their existence on campus, we've heard rumors. At what point does our speculation in the mess hall become toleration under the honor code?

MCKEAN: Well, first off, I've not been told that the Night Riders and the Skull and Swords are still active. Don't take me down that trail, and by your statement don't think that I know that they're active. I do not. If I did, I'd be dead on them like a damn hound dog out after a raccoon.

GUIDON: Is that on the record?

MCKEAN: Sure. That's a good question. When you know something, and you do nothing, you're in some phase of toleration. You knowing about a secret society, where does that fall under? Is it lying? Cheating? Did you steal anything? So in everybody's mind, they're okay.

GUIDON: But am I tolerating anything?

MCKEAN: You're tolerating, because that's where you get into integrity.

GUIDON: Here's a hypothetical situation: do I know they exist, or am I speculating about their existence?

MCKEAN: You're on the verge. You know something; you've heard something. If you're in doubt, what you do is you say, 'I've heard this.' Now you've alerted some official that you think something's going on. We can't do anything with it, either. I mean, you have speculation; it's in the mess hall; 'I think Joe's a….' what did you say?

GUIDON: 'Rider'

MCKEAN: 'A Rider,' you can report that, that's third-, fourth-hand knowledge up here. That's a rumor. We'll keep our ears up. But it's blatant toleration when you've had first hand knowledge. You're tolerant to the point that you knew something was going on. Most of the students don't know; several students had names. Part of that initiation is that you had to get beat like the pictures you saw. Now I can't imagine that, because we have community showers, that somebody didn't notice that, and that wasn't alarming.

The five freshmen that were beat, it was an upperclassmen cadre member that saw marks and heard them talk, and wasn't about to tolerate. That person knew that clearly it was way out of a cadet inspection, it's 'get up here, let's protect these freshmen,' even though the freshmen volunteered for it, by the way, but the fact that they volunteered doesn't protect them under Vermont State law. When people see that as first-hand knowledge, and then turn their heads, you're absolutely tolerating criminal activity.

GUIDON: So would you say that first-hand knowledge is pretty much where you would draw the line on toleration?

MCKEAN: I can't draw a line. I cannot draw a line. Every one of us tolerates to some extent. There are small things: I see that one of my friends has had three beers, and driving home, I'm tolerating DUI. I can call the cops and have him pulled over. Three beers, eh…. I've done that. I don't know where you draw the line; I think that's in the person. That's an individual thing. I do know that when you have first-hand knowledge…. A cadet last night used the example of his friends drinking in the barracks. Don't around from that! Tell the person! Say, 'Hey, I'm sorry, but you've put me in a compromising position. I've seen this. You have 24 hours to turn yourself in, and if you don't, I'm going to have to turn you in." Now first off, if they're truly your friend, they'll turn themselves in, but if they're not your friend, they're going to challenge you and make you compromise yourself.

GUIDON: On that note, where would you like to see students here draw the line?

MCKEAN: When they have any factual knowledge, first- or second-hand. If they think something's going on that is not right and that affects the good order and discipline of the university, that affects the reputation of the university, that's harmful to others, I'd like to see them step out. We heard a lot about respect last night and quibbling. I would respect the dickens out of them if they would come forward anytime and say, 'We aren't going to allow this, because it's detrimental to the good order and discipline; all you guys who are members of this, turn yourselves in.'

GUIDON: Hypothetical situation. A student is sitting in the mess hall who is a senior or junior who has a lot of senior friends, and they hear repeatedly that "insert name here" is a member of a secret society or is associated with a group. Is that toleration?

MCKEAN: I think I understand. At that point, if I knew the person they were talking about, I would confront the person, as a friend. I would say, 'Look, I'm hearing a lot of rumors that you're a member of X. Are you? And before you answer that, you need to know that I'm not going to tolerate it, so I'm asking you as a friend, are you a member?' And if they say yes, then I'm going to say, 'I want you to turn yourself in. And I know this may violate our friendship.' That's tough. That is real hard to do at this age. It's very hard to do. But in the long run, and it's hard to understand, but you're going to make a bigger impact on that person and save that person. You are going to save that person.

GUIDON: From….?

MCKEAN: From a total disregard from human life. When you have an initiation where you're spanking someone, beating them with an axe handle, you don't know at what point that you're going to break a tailbone, you're going to crush their spleen, you're going hit them below where you break tendons; you don't know that. When you require people to funnel alcohol, you don't know what their body chemistry makeup is and how it will affect that person. Even if they've been funneling and drinking their whole life, this could be the touch. That's why fraternities kill people monthly.

GUIDON: What might you have to say to alumni who have been supportive of this group?

MCKEAN: I don't know exactly. I told you I've had evidence of alumni coming back to take part in this stuff, to be sure that these kids carry this on. If that lineage wasn't out there, this probably wouldn't be as bad as it is. That's why they tell you people step in. I have anecdotal evidence that suggests that some of the alumni of this outfit who were part of it have actually said, "You get in trouble, you call this number, and I'll take care of it." That's anecdotal. But I have pictures of them coming back. Keep in mind that you could throw up to me, as well as many of the students, that fraternities do this all the time. But we're different.

GUIDON: Well, I'm actually about to go there. The company recognition. Last night you challenged that directly as a non-sanctioned activity. However, it's relatively well known that the individual companies do, at some point in the spring semester, go out and conduct their own company recognition ceremony. Obviously a lot of students were disappointed by that. So, is there in any way a possibility that an alternate activity will be offered to these individual companies to keep their company identity?

MCKEAN: First off, you know, it's kind of strange.

GUIDON: What is?

MCKEAN: This has been unauthorized for several years, and you said I took it head on; yes, I did. One thing I promised everybody when I got here, I will be honest, I will be forthright, you always aren't going to like what I say, and I get in trouble that way, because I am honest. I get a bad bone occasionally, but I generally don't have a bad bone in my body, and I wear everything on my sleeve. What you see is what you've got. I…you can read one thing on the 'Net. The Ph.D that did something last year, and he talked about the company ritual. It's not right. What they did, what he reported, was a total disconcern for human safety and welfare. And it's amazing to me that the student body knows that it's unauthorized. And the fact that what you just said happens, that's a huge toleration. It's a total disregard for regulations. It's a total disregard and disrespect for the good order and discipline of an organization. Everybody…they want to be self-governing; the corps wants to run itself. They want to have their own government.

GUIDON: Now that the company recognition is no longer allowed…..

MCKEAN: It never has been allowed.

GUIDON: Now that you're taking it on, reiterating, while this may not be a new policy, a lot of students feel that when the policy is not restated each year, to them it's new.

MCKEAN: I understand that…

GUIDON: So, now that you've chosen to take that on, will there be an alternative offered? How do you intend to combat that, when there's almost been an atmosphere of tacit approval due to inaction with regard to company recognitions?

MCKEAN: I don't know. If it's a big deal to them to have something, come tell me what that something is. If it is a ritual, if it is an initiation, no. If it's something that has tasks, conditions, and standards, in other words, if you're recognized to be in 'X' Company, you have to be able to repeat these things in the rook book in three seconds, I'll check the reasonableness of it. Each year, most of these students change companies. Very few people stay in the same company for four years. Yet we have these rituals by company, you just told me that. How can they have that? We're all brand new, we all come from different companies, now all of a sudden I'm in A Company, but last year, we're in B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I.

GUIDON: For the students who would like it to return to the days when you stay in the companies, and your original company isn't "shuffled" year after year….

MCKEAN: I think there's merit there. Now, the president and I haven't come to closure on that together. I think there's a calling. First off, the fact that we have this stuff may suggest that we aren't doing some things right. I believe that most people who come to Norwich, I've asked the question, and they refuse to answer the question, I said, "What brought you here?" Probably, if they came to be in the corps, they're looking to belong to something that they thought was elite and challenging; I'll bet that's kind of why they chose the corps. I mean, they came to the university; they chose the corps because it offered them something else. So I have to ask myself, "What drives them into these unauthorized organizations?" I mean, I have some soul searching to do. I have to say, do we have the right outlets here? Maybe they should stay in "the company." I'm looking at that very seriously. There are a couple of models; I think we might be one, or one of two, senior military colleges and academies that scramble the students every year. You do have to do it once, just to split personalities, because you have personality conflicts that occur that make it difficult to grow. I think that we have enough research and evidence through all the military colleges that suggest that you should do that. The downside, you know, of keeping people in one company is what we're talking about. Secret rituals, these things crop in. You're a member of the "X Company X-Rays," and then they have their own secret little initiation. What I read on the 'Net about the fellow in the corps, part of their company recognition was they had (the freshmen) up on lower Disney; they had them running through the snow; and they were in tennis shoes; and it was slushy; and they were out there for several hours; and their feet were all in pain. Does anybody know about frostbite and hypothermia? Did anyone care? The answer is no. I've seen what frostbite does firsthand, and it does not have to be sub-zero weather for frostbite. Did they ever stop and think about that? This isn't meant to be derogatory toward them, but young people don't think about that stuff. They don't think about the second or third order of facts. They don't.

GUIDON: Would you be able to give the students any assurance that you are actively seeking alternatives to company recognition?

MCKEAN: I am open to the students telling me, if they desire, that this is what they would like to do, to be very open and honest with me about what they want to do, to allow controls. Because it's a question/answer thing. Okay, [the students] want to have a special ceremony; we want to recognize them in a special little ceremony. Tell me what the ceremony's going to be. It's not going to be an initiation, but tell me what it's going to be. If it is with class and dignity, and doesn't put anybody in harm's way, and doesn't denigrate human beings, then I'd be open to that.

GUIDON: We heard a lot about the LOS last night, but we didn't hear much about the other fabled secret societies on campus. Why?

MCKEAN: I don't know about any of the other ones. And that's the honest truth.

GUIDON: Okay….

MCKEAN: If I did, and we were investigating, I wouldn't tell you. But I will tell you that I'm not investigating right now, but I do have, I'll be very honest with you, something did come up that we will look into, but the ones you threw at me, the Skull and Swords, I've heard nothing about their existence as active existence on campus. The Night Riders, I'm almost to what you just said about speculation. I've had no evidence at all, and I've had no one come forward to tell me that. I'm not on a witch hunt for anything. But if I see it, and I sniff it, I'm going after it. I will not turn my head. Because it's detrimental to most students, and my heart is in the protection of all students.

GUIDON: Is there anything you'd like to add about this issue?

MCKEAN: No, what I want to do is to be sure that we don't become divisive. I want to be sure that this campus maintains the values and the character, and our guiding values that we harp and we put in front of everybody and that we're proud of. We don't do that, if we're divisive and we're fighting. "Jackman" is always going to be the enemy. You've got the fabled "Jackman."

GUIDON: Not Alonzo Jackman or the physical building, but….

MCKEAN: I'm attributed to the building. I've decided that it's not personal; it's the building… but that's okay. That's normal stuff. I don't mind small pranks, innocent pranks. Everybody understands that if they get caught doing a prank, they'll be punished. I don't hold a grudge. I don't hold the past over people's heads. We learn, we grow. Fair?

GUIDON: Fair enough.

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